“The UK Independence Party has surged to a record high in the opinion polls under its brash leader Nigel Farage.
But a Sunday Mirror investigation today reveals a sickening catalogue of racist and homophobic views held by some of its biggest supporters…..” [cont’d p94]
Ah, the Sunday Mirror, that paragon of impartial news gathering and glittering prose… I prefer Dave Spart. Didn’t read beyond those first lines – life’s too short.
Why would anyone on an avowedly libertarian website wish to link to the Sunday Mirror? Beats me. And you can keep knocking UKIP as much as you like, but at present it’s having the rather praiseworthy effect of rattling the Tories, and others too. A vote for UKIP can be seen to add to this effect: a vote for a libertarian candidate – somewhat thin on the ground – goes in the bin along with those of the other twelve people in the constituency who voted similarly.
I mean, apart from UKIP who else ya gonna vote for – Ghostbusters? Who cares about a little bit of racism here and there, anyway, apart from limp-wristed Guardian reading types?
“Why would anyone on an avowedly libertarian website wish to link to the Sunday Mirror?”
Becuase the content is of importance to libertarians. It may not be true, or entertaining – it might even be hard work – but it is of importance to us becuase the way in which libertarianism and libertarian institutions are talked about is of importance. Hell, we don’t even agree about whether UKIP is libertarian, and the comments quoted are of some (though minimal) use for that purpose at least.
… and this is a purposeful enterprise, a media outlet supporting the needs of those libertarians attempting to affect policy change in the United Kingdom. We’re not just shooting the wind and putting the world to rights in a room above a pub (although we do do that and support it by supporting a Meetup.com group). Anything of importance will be linked to, whether you like or not, or indeed whether or not *we* like it. Linking does not imply endorsement.
Recall that libertarians are nerdy types, they did not get to be libertarians if they cannot read information critically and identify what is true, what is untrue and act accordingly. In turn, I treat my audience accordingly.
Fair enough. I’m not a “nerdy type”: my political aspirations & needs are really quite simple and practical. I’d like the government to be smaller, less obtrusive, less prescriptive, lots cheaper, with lower taxes and an absence of cynical vote-buying politicos who’ve created their own reliable voting bloc of immigrants, welfare recipients and State employees.
I don’t think UKIP is especially libertarian, and it has many failings, but it represents more closely my aspirations than any of the established Parties.
My politics are sort of conservative, sort of nationalist (without shiny boots, parades, juntas etc) and sort of a bit libertarian.
Let’s see how the next couple of years go, with the Euro elections then the GE. Interesting times – but I’m not optimistic. Things will get worse, given our corrupted form of democracy, and I don’t even think things are likely to get better in the forseeable. But at least voting UKIP stands a chance, no matter how small, of making some slight difference.
It’s encouraging that UKIP is coming in for so much stick, from sources as disparate as the Sunday Mirror, the Tory Party, and, er, certain libertarians – they must be doing something right to get up everyone’s nose.
Watching Ukip row about blacks and gays – and come to the conclusion that support for them is more unacceptable than hatred – is rather ugly. I dare say a competent Conservative leader in David Cameron’s place would make some political capital out of this, but Dave is a dolt.
Who cares whether Ukip are libertarian? They want out of the EU. We want out of the EU. That is all. And if they ever get us out they will cease to exist within weeks. Dan Hannan is right to see Ukip as a Conservative splinter group that will come back one day.
Do you mean UKIP’s supporters (or most of them) will return to the Tory fold? I’m not sure that’s true. In my experience very many people transferred their allegiance to UKIP only following a difficult process of reflection – not on a petulant whim. I personally find the Tory Party so hopeless (on the whole – some honourable exceptions), not least in the way they have connived at Labour’s statism, continuing this while in office, that I would find it very hard ever to vote Tory again. I suggest this feeling is common.
That is also my understanding, but wouldn’t a Conservative/Ukip merger result in a more Thatcherite kind of Conservative party? Not just Cameron plus Farage, I don’t imagine for a second that the “wets” would still be in charge. Maybe this sounds unlikely, but the force behind Hannan’s argument is that this is fundamentally a two-party system, and if “the right” are split then we will have permanent “leftist” government. In other words, there is simply no choice. Ukip’s continued existence is close to a miracle to me, I just see it as a symptom of how incredibly bad the Conservatives have become and how urgent the Europe issue is. Maybe we end up with Lib Dems and a small Ukip (or libertarian party) as left and right protest parties, but no more than that.
Not going to predict it, but would hope for a clean authoritarian / libertarian split. There would have to be a big shake up to get that though. E.g. Some parties going bust.
Back in the LPUK days I often used to talk about libertarians & poujadists. I think that some of what has happened in the UKIP youth wing of late has been just that-a conflict between libertarians & poujadists. Perhaps in time people will just realise that the two groups might share a similar view of the problem, but the solutions they advocate are very different to one another. Still, there is usually some entertainment in having a LOL at the poujadists.
Political soi-disant intellectuals have tended to sneer at “Poujadisme”, indeed Margaret Thatcher came in for criticism of this sort IIRC. The critics – “libertarians” or collectivist authoritarians – have tended also never to be remotely as successful politically as Thatcher, whose reputation and popularity are still strong today, or indeed as influential as Poujadisme was in its native France.
Yes people do sneer at the poujadists & rightly so.
In earlier comments you have explained your reasons for supporting UKIP. Fair enough, given your own views. I refuse to vote for warmongering politicians, so if my UKIP candidate in 2015 turns out to favour a non-interventionist foreign policy I’ll give him my vote. If not it will have to go elsewhere.
Good for him. I’ve met UKIPers who are non-interventionist & others who are neocons, just as I’ve met UKIPers with sensible ideas about drug legalisation & others who would flog drug dealers in public. Keith, if UKIP policies & my local candidate in 2015 reflect what you claim Farage was saying the other night, then I shall strongly consider voting for them.
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“The UK Independence Party has surged to a record high in the opinion polls under its brash leader Nigel Farage.
But a Sunday Mirror investigation today reveals a sickening catalogue of racist and homophobic views held by some of its biggest supporters…..” [cont’d p94]
Ah, the Sunday Mirror, that paragon of impartial news gathering and glittering prose… I prefer Dave Spart. Didn’t read beyond those first lines – life’s too short.
Why would anyone on an avowedly libertarian website wish to link to the Sunday Mirror? Beats me. And you can keep knocking UKIP as much as you like, but at present it’s having the rather praiseworthy effect of rattling the Tories, and others too. A vote for UKIP can be seen to add to this effect: a vote for a libertarian candidate – somewhat thin on the ground – goes in the bin along with those of the other twelve people in the constituency who voted similarly.
I mean, apart from UKIP who else ya gonna vote for – Ghostbusters? Who cares about a little bit of racism here and there, anyway, apart from limp-wristed Guardian reading types?
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“Why would anyone on an avowedly libertarian website wish to link to the Sunday Mirror?”
Becuase the content is of importance to libertarians. It may not be true, or entertaining – it might even be hard work – but it is of importance to us becuase the way in which libertarianism and libertarian institutions are talked about is of importance. Hell, we don’t even agree about whether UKIP is libertarian, and the comments quoted are of some (though minimal) use for that purpose at least.
… and this is a purposeful enterprise, a media outlet supporting the needs of those libertarians attempting to affect policy change in the United Kingdom. We’re not just shooting the wind and putting the world to rights in a room above a pub (although we do do that and support it by supporting a Meetup.com group). Anything of importance will be linked to, whether you like or not, or indeed whether or not *we* like it. Linking does not imply endorsement.
Recall that libertarians are nerdy types, they did not get to be libertarians if they cannot read information critically and identify what is true, what is untrue and act accordingly. In turn, I treat my audience accordingly.
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Fair enough. I’m not a “nerdy type”: my political aspirations & needs are really quite simple and practical. I’d like the government to be smaller, less obtrusive, less prescriptive, lots cheaper, with lower taxes and an absence of cynical vote-buying politicos who’ve created their own reliable voting bloc of immigrants, welfare recipients and State employees.
I don’t think UKIP is especially libertarian, and it has many failings, but it represents more closely my aspirations than any of the established Parties.
My politics are sort of conservative, sort of nationalist (without shiny boots, parades, juntas etc) and sort of a bit libertarian.
Let’s see how the next couple of years go, with the Euro elections then the GE. Interesting times – but I’m not optimistic. Things will get worse, given our corrupted form of democracy, and I don’t even think things are likely to get better in the forseeable. But at least voting UKIP stands a chance, no matter how small, of making some slight difference.
It’s encouraging that UKIP is coming in for so much stick, from sources as disparate as the Sunday Mirror, the Tory Party, and, er, certain libertarians – they must be doing something right to get up everyone’s nose.
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Watching Ukip row about blacks and gays – and come to the conclusion that support for them is more unacceptable than hatred – is rather ugly. I dare say a competent Conservative leader in David Cameron’s place would make some political capital out of this, but Dave is a dolt.
Who cares whether Ukip are libertarian? They want out of the EU. We want out of the EU. That is all. And if they ever get us out they will cease to exist within weeks. Dan Hannan is right to see Ukip as a Conservative splinter group that will come back one day.
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Do you mean UKIP’s supporters (or most of them) will return to the Tory fold? I’m not sure that’s true. In my experience very many people transferred their allegiance to UKIP only following a difficult process of reflection – not on a petulant whim. I personally find the Tory Party so hopeless (on the whole – some honourable exceptions), not least in the way they have connived at Labour’s statism, continuing this while in office, that I would find it very hard ever to vote Tory again. I suggest this feeling is common.
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That is also my understanding, but wouldn’t a Conservative/Ukip merger result in a more Thatcherite kind of Conservative party? Not just Cameron plus Farage, I don’t imagine for a second that the “wets” would still be in charge. Maybe this sounds unlikely, but the force behind Hannan’s argument is that this is fundamentally a two-party system, and if “the right” are split then we will have permanent “leftist” government. In other words, there is simply no choice. Ukip’s continued existence is close to a miracle to me, I just see it as a symptom of how incredibly bad the Conservatives have become and how urgent the Europe issue is. Maybe we end up with Lib Dems and a small Ukip (or libertarian party) as left and right protest parties, but no more than that.
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It’s entirely possible that we will continue to have a two party system, but with a /different/ two parties in contention.
The left, in that scenario, is the advocate of greater change.
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So Labour vs. a Thatcherite conservative party called Ukip?
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Not going to predict it, but would hope for a clean authoritarian / libertarian split. There would have to be a big shake up to get that though. E.g. Some parties going bust.
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Back in the LPUK days I often used to talk about libertarians & poujadists. I think that some of what has happened in the UKIP youth wing of late has been just that-a conflict between libertarians & poujadists. Perhaps in time people will just realise that the two groups might share a similar view of the problem, but the solutions they advocate are very different to one another. Still, there is usually some entertainment in having a LOL at the poujadists.
LikeLike
Political soi-disant intellectuals have tended to sneer at “Poujadisme”, indeed Margaret Thatcher came in for criticism of this sort IIRC. The critics – “libertarians” or collectivist authoritarians – have tended also never to be remotely as successful politically as Thatcher, whose reputation and popularity are still strong today, or indeed as influential as Poujadisme was in its native France.
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Yes people do sneer at the poujadists & rightly so.
In earlier comments you have explained your reasons for supporting UKIP. Fair enough, given your own views. I refuse to vote for warmongering politicians, so if my UKIP candidate in 2015 turns out to favour a non-interventionist foreign policy I’ll give him my vote. If not it will have to go elsewhere.
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On Question Time the other night, Farage spoke out clearly against enmeshing ourselves in the foreign wars entered into by both Blair and Cameron.
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Good for him. I’ve met UKIPers who are non-interventionist & others who are neocons, just as I’ve met UKIPers with sensible ideas about drug legalisation & others who would flog drug dealers in public. Keith, if UKIP policies & my local candidate in 2015 reflect what you claim Farage was saying the other night, then I shall strongly consider voting for them.
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